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Notes for a Novel (Read 112038 times)
Michael Bywater
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #15 - Jan 14th, 2008, 1:36pm
 
Colin -- I can only speak for myself, but I haven't tried and frankly I don't think it would help the way I work that much. I have the Tinderbox file and the Scrivener file open & just copy and paste between them. The structure in Tinderbox is far too intricate to export to Scrivener anyway, without losing 80% of the point of using Tinderbox in the first place...

If you did want to export, then split, your file, the best way would be perhaps to use the Text Export in Tinderbox, then go through it using the Documents > Split > At Selection command in Scrivener; this then would give you multiple Scrivener files and off you go. (There isn't, as far as I know, the equivalent of Tinderbox's Explode command in Scrivener, but you might raise the question on the Scrivener forum and see what you get.)

Hope this helps. Others will probably have far more sophisticated answers, but I have to say that exporting from Tinderbox has never been something I've done much, so I'm not really up to speed on the possibilities.
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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2008, 1:59pm by Mark Anderson »  
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JeffAbbott
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #16 - Jan 14th, 2008, 2:05pm
 
Colin:

I have not tried it but there was a discussion on how to do this on the Scrivener forum. (There has actually been a fair amount of discussion about Tinderbox there.)

http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1355&highlight=tinderbox...

This is the most specific direction I have seen on how to do this, kindly posted by AmberV, one of the forum's moderators and a Tinderbox fan. I hope it is okay to reproduce here what she suggested:

===

I would definitely recommend using the HTML exporter for this. While it is called HTML export, it is in reality much more flexible. The format is only what the template dictates it to be. You can use very simple templates like:

Code:
^title
^text


And you'll get a bunch of text files, arranged in folders to match the Tinderbox outline, with a title on one line and then the content of the note. There are a few things to watch for. Set the default for the attribute HTMLMarkupText to false. This way you will not get <p> tags around paragraphs and so forth. You might also want to extend the length of HTMLMaxFilenameLength to 128 or so, and set HTMLExportExtension to txt, instead of html.

Once you get things exported the way you like it, you can just drag the folder that Tinderbox creates into Scrivener's Binder, and the outline structure will be retained.

If you did wish to retain formatting; if you used bold and italics in Tinderbox and you want to carry that over to Scrivener, then you probably should let it create very simple HTML files, and make sure to set Scrivener to convert HTML to rich text in preferences.
===
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Michael Bywater
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #17 - Jan 14th, 2008, 2:34pm
 
Jeff, I thought you said you weren't technically minded... That routine you posted is pretty neat. Thanks!
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JeffAbbott
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #18 - Jan 14th, 2008, 2:41pm
 
It's not mine--it's AmberV's-- and I don't even know how to make it work or if it will work, although I might be tempted to try it later. I know nothing about HTML. Caveat emptor and all that.
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Mark Anderson
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #19 - Jan 15th, 2008, 3:23pm
 
By varying the structure of your TBX outline and the scope of your (HTML) export, e.g. a container and all its descendants - or just immediate children - you will be able to output folders of files that will replicate the hierarchy in Scrivener.  I don't have the app (so have only watched the movie) and it appears folders of files will drag-import with the folder/file layout intact.

Thus your container for the first chapter might be an empty container called "Chapter 1". Exporting this and its child notes should give you a folder of 'html' (or whatever format you choose) files. Nakakoji text export works a different way and this is why you're better off using 'HTML' export in this scenario even if your templates don't use HTML mark-up. I realise that will seem a little counter-intuitive at first sight - welcome to the power of Tinderbox.

Exporting footnotes and other such annotations as part of the 'source' note (i.e. main article + all supporting references/footnotes in one exported file/document) is more difficult, if the linked content are separate TB notes and only referenced by TB links. However, if a set attribute is used, the parent can record the note names of all it's supporting references.  Then (v4.0.0+), assuming our user set attribute is called MyRefs, then at the bottom of the source nore, add a new paragraph like this:

format(MyRefs,<ol>,<li>,</li>,</ol>)

When exported the references will be a numbered list of 'bullets'. Want bullets instead of numbers? Use a 'ul' instead of 'ol' in the above tags.

Want references separate from footnotes?  Use 2 attributes, then do as above once for each named attribute. And so on....

Not sure about format()? See the manual and this aTbRef page.
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2008, 4:24pm by Mark Anderson »  

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briankpenney
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #20 - Jan 15th, 2008, 10:00pm
 
Sarah Smith wrote on Jan 13th, 2008, 12:32am:
In Agenda, you can create any number of views, and set up the views to show information pretty much as you like.  You can then add new notes to any view, giving them attributes like a Tinderbox note.  But the views are entirely independent of one another, so any playing around with organization in one view won't affect the others.   You can also display information about notes in views, without sorting by that information.  For example, you can set up a view showing only your pivotal scenes, display the point of view from which they're told, and sort them in the order that you'd like them for this view--without affecting any other view.


These are issues I've thought about too, and maybe would be of interest to others in their writing. All of us want to look at our notes from different views... part of why we are using TBX in the first place: the simultaneous map, outline, etc. views, even the ability to have complex views you don't use all the time by having an agent that you turn off until you need it.

However, sometimes I want to see the same notes in different ways for different purposes, and I think Sarah (Hi Sarah!) hits two interesting ideas:
1) can you have different orders/arrangements of notes in different views, such that the order in one does not affect the other? I have managed to do this on a small scale by creating a new note ("Arrangement 1" or something), creating aliases for the notes of interest, pulling them into the map view of Arrangement 1 and rearranging them at will. You can theoretically do this as many times as you like, and rearranging the notes in one view won't affect the other views. However, creating the aliases each time is manual and clunky. Is there a way to speed this up? For instance, I can Find all the notes that relate to a topic, but cannot seem to clone them in the find view; I have to open separate new outline views for each.
2) can you choose which "flags" to display in a given view? I know I can have agents or rules stamp notes with colors or badges that pervade all views. I don't think there is a way the badge can vary from view to view given the way Tinderbox is set up. However, Tinderbox 4 has the tab on the bottom of notes in map view that display which prototype to which the note belongs; maybe this tab could display other information in different views? (Mark?) I find I don't use the tab to reassign prototypes that much. Just a thought.
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Martin Spernau
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #21 - Jan 18th, 2008, 4:47pm
 
What an interesting thread this is!
Lots of good hints and workflow ideas.
And I can actually start in this forum by contributing solutions Smiley

a) Keeping Outline and Map views 'in sync': Mark and others have hinted at ways to organize map views according to the outline ordering... I actualy prefer it the other way around. In my approach the map is a 'visual outline' where I shuffle notes around, stack them this way or that and generally re arrange them a lot. The actual outline view is more about Export and pulling the various pieces into one piece of text.
To sync the (export) outline to my constant rearranging of notes in the map I simply use the 'sort by' option of the containing note and set it to Ypos. I've dscrined this in more detail here:
http://traumwind.de/tindertraum/archives/cloud_to_text.html

b) Having notes appear in several independant views... I've used aliases for this with great success, but it is a manual process of creating them and nt one I'd do with large numbers of notes.

c) devonThink etc... is anyone here using it for it's ability to find 'similar notes?' I was wondering if Tbx' Similar Notes feature was useful to anyone here...

-Martin
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #22 - Jan 19th, 2008, 8:36am
 
I use "Find Similar Notes" all the time for my weblog.

I have several thousand notes in this document, and I want to build a web of interconnections to different notes instead of reinforcing a few "favorite" posts over and over.  "Find Similar Notes" works nicely for locating candidates.

(Perhaps this is the start of a new topic?)
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AndyDent
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #23 - Jan 24th, 2008, 5:29am
 
JeffAbbott wrote on Jan 11th, 2008, 8:53pm:
I think I am going to stick with Map View because that's the view I was picturing analyzing the book in much more than Outline view.

Don't think of Map View as singular.

You can have multiple Map Views open. Say you create a few containers to represent different arbitrary maps of items at various levels. You can put aliases of those items into this container and they can have a visual relationship in that container's Map View independent of any other relationships. Multiple aliases can be copied and pasted into other containers to keep playing with alternate spatial relationships.

Something I would LOVE would be a quick way to add aliases from one or more selected items with a drag operation, say option-drag or option-command-drag. Using containers for multiple map views in this manner is the only convincing scenario I've been able to come up with for this feature so Mark hasn't (yet) implemented it  Wink
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JeffAbbott
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #24 - Feb 16th, 2008, 1:22pm
 
I should note that I haven't gotten the HTML export from Tinderbox into Scrivener to work right; it puts all the Tinderbox notes into a file called imported media, the notes are in alphabetical order, and the structure is lost. (This isn't the fault of Tinderbox; I know next to nothing about HTML, so I'm quite sure that it's pilot error.) But that's okay--I'm simply recreating the structure in Scrivener while keeping Tinderbox open. This way I have access to all my notes  while writing and can easily change the outline as I do my rewrite. I could have spent a lot of time trying to diagnose it, but I decided that the "by hand" way was much better--forcing me to think another time about structure, which is not a bad thing.

Having used it for a few weeks, I am really liking Tinderbox as a writer's tool. I have purposefully not tried to delve too deep into it because I think it's not a good thing to worry more about tools/processes than the actual writing. I care far more about getting the book done, and writing it well, and completing it on time, than I do the perfection of my notes/outline. But I am happy with Tinderbox and my choice to move to it from Inspiration.
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JeffAbbott
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #25 - Nov 20th, 2008, 9:43am
 
It's been a long while since I wrote anything about using Tinderbox in my writing--but I just started a new book this week, and so this is the first time doing a book I could "start" with Tinderbox. I found myself during the last book straddling a bit--somethings in paper notebooks, somethings in Tinderbox. I've been thinking about this next book for a few weeks, lots of paper notes, but now I'm pouring everything into Tinderbox. (I still will use paper notebooks, but I am making myself move that into Tinderbox on a regular basis.)

Not only am I putting every idea, character sketch, list of potential scenes, etc., into Tinderbox I'm also putting in every to-do that might go along with the book: research plans, lists of research sources, schedule for writing the drafts, things I want to remember as I write the book. It will either be a great resource or a black hole.

I finally took yesterday to read The Tinderbox Way. A couple of times I felt real resistance to making the effort to learn the product more deeply; but knowing that my old way wasn't entirely satisfactory kept me going, and I hope this will work well for me. Will report back later.
Amazed that this is such a widely read thread.
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #26 - Nov 20th, 2008, 9:34pm
 
Always remember to keep great backups!  Time Machine is your friend.

But this is very cool.  It's great to be of help!
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JeffAbbott
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #27 - Jan 5th, 2009, 9:50am
 
Thanks, Mark.

I might mention that I have been writing a series of entries on my blog called The Organized Writer--about how I manage both the creative and administrative sides of being a professional writer. Tinderbox has gotten a couple of shout-outs. You can click on the Organized Writer link on the main blog page to see all the entries.

http://blog.jeffabbott.com/

Even using Tinderbox for so much of my notes, I still feel I'm not using it to its full potential. I tend to dump tons of thoughts and ideas into it and then never quite organize it in a better way (I just sort of arrange things as I think it will be useful and keep thinking I should let the software do more of that work).
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AsafKeller
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #28 - Dec 31st, 2009, 10:34am
 
Quote:
On Feb 16th, 2008 JeffAbbott wrote: I should note that I haven't gotten the HTML export from Tinderbox into Scrivener to work right; it puts all the Tinderbox notes into a file called imported media, the notes are in alphabetical order, and the structure is lost.
Has anyone found a way to export directly from TB to Scrivener while maintaining the outline structure?
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: Notes for a Novel
Reply #29 - Dec 31st, 2009, 11:30am
 
HTML export is easy; in Tinderbox 5, you can copy outlines and paste them; tab indents will reflect the hierarchical structure.
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