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Exporting notes as footnotes (Read 11936 times)
Rigas Arvanitis
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Exporting notes as footnotes
Sep 13th, 2010, 2:05am
 
Hi

How is it possible to export some notes that are "footnotes" (that is the child of a "text" note) which I would like to see in a Word document as a footnote (or endnote) ?

I have not found a simple answer. Any suggestion?

I have two simple templates for the "article" and a "section"  which I use to export to HTML (and from HTML to Word) based on two prototypes: article.html and section.html :

article.html

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
   <head>
       <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
       <title>^title^</title>
   </head>
   <body>
       <article>
           <h1>^title^</h1>
           ^text^
           ^children^
       </article>
   </body>
</html>

section.html

<section>
   <h^value($OutlineDepth)^>^title^</h^value($OutlineDepth)^>
   ^Text^
   ^children^
</section>

In the structure of the document I have some notes that are "children" of "section" notes; these I would like to see somewhere as footnote.


Thanks for any suggestion!

Rigas

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« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 2:06am by Rigas Arvanitis »  

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Mark Bernstein
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #1 - Sep 13th, 2010, 10:44am
 
I don't think it's generally possible to export from any program to Word footnotes via a documented API. (Yes, there's the Word XML route, but my understanding is that it's not really intended for use)

I would suggest exporting your Tinderbox "footnote" notes at the end of sections or at the end of the document, setting them off with distinctive markup:

<hr>
div class="notes">
^children(Notes)
</div>

In Word, copy each note, select the note anchor, choose Insert Footnote, and paste the note.
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Charles Turner
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #2 - Sep 13th, 2010, 10:55am
 
Hi Rigas-

My thought was to use MultiMarkDown in some way. There's a foundation for Tinderbox here:

http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/forum//YaBB.pl?num=1260794602/25#25

But what you'll have to do is get the Tinderbox footnotes to export as markup; perhaps not an easy task.

MultiMarkDown also would export to RTF, and you'd have to go from there to Word.

HTH, Charles

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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #3 - Sep 13th, 2010, 10:57am
 
Thank you for this suggestion. Most infortunate !

Is there any other wordprocessing programme that would accept this export of Notes as endnote or footnotes?

Additional question that may be useful to all:

- Is there a way to show in the exported HTML document, that there is a link that points to a "footnote" in Tinderbox?  Combined with the above suggestion of exporting the notes in a distinctive markup, it would make things easier afterwards in numbering somehow the "footnotes".



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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #4 - Sep 13th, 2010, 11:07am
 
Hi Charles

I was aware of MMD. I find it complicated -- one more thing to manage !!! But worse, notes in Tinderbox that take into account MMD coding are nasty to read !

Tinderbox manages quite well the export to Html and I thought that would make things easy to have it make the job scrivener (for eg.) does, that is help me gather info from my TBX database into a readable document by the rest of humanity that deos not manage Tbx (poor them!). As an academic footnotes/endnotes are an essentia part of my writing work.

For those interested there is a nice tutorial "Creating an article in HTML with Tinderbox" (L.M. Orchard) that uses MultiMarkDown to produce an exported HTML. With no footnotes either.

http://github.com/lmorchard/tinderbox-article-tutorial


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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #5 - Sep 13th, 2010, 4:26pm
 
I know of no program of any kind that reliably exports footnotes and endnotes to Word using a public interface.
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« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 4:27pm by Mark Bernstein »  
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JB
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #6 - Sep 13th, 2010, 8:45pm
 
Thanks for this question, Rigas, and to all who have replied.

I, too, wondered how to go from Tinderbox to a document with footnotes, and some months ago was surprised not to find any discussion of this in the forums. (Perhaps I missed it?)

Ulysses (which I think deserves far more notice than it seems to get) can produce RTF (and Word can, I think, import RTF. I don’t use Word, so I’m not sure about this. Please correct me if I'm wrong Smiley) In any case, my ‘solution’ to the problem of going from Tinderbox to RTF with footnotes has been to use Ulysses.

In Tinderbox, I simply insert the Ulysses in-text footnote reference marker - {{1}} - in my text, and in a separate (footnote) note simply enclose the text of that note in the footnote marker - {{1-Text of note.}}.

Exporting all ‘footnotes’ at end of doc, as Mark A. suggests, makes it trivial with Ulysses to turn all of this into RTF (or PDF, Latex, etc.) with ‘real’ footnotes.

This may seem a bit roundabout, but since I use Ulysses for other things anyway, and I like its abilities (especially for those wanting to use plain text) and its interface, this is a method that works well for me.

For academic writing, one of the virtues of Tinderbox (and Ulysses) is that footnotes can be lengthy and yet out of the way. I find the outlining, mapping capacities of Tinderbox unsurpassed and, in conjunction with Ulysses, these capacities can be harnessed for academic writing which requires footnotes. And all of this without terribly complex export code (that I’d probably never be able to figure out.)
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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #7 - Sep 14th, 2010, 4:49am
 
Thanks James!

I'll consider Ulysses. Never heard of it before.

Mark Bernstein is right about the fact that there is

Quote:
no programme of any kind that reliably exports footnotes and endnotes to Word using a public interface.


The solution is of course the one James suggests :

some code like {{1}} in the text of the note like the in-citations used by Endote  {this is a footnote} and have a link from there to the note can contains the footnote.

So Mark if you are hearing: we need some small button in the Note Menu that creates the incitation and footnote instead of having to type it. Is it possible? Meanwhile I'll stick to the footnote solution as separate notes, have a *notes proto and have it included at the end of the text where the footnote belongs to.

Any suggestion for numbering notes? Is it possible for eg. to have a FootNumber attribute can increments only for these notes belonging to a certain container? (we're nearing perfection here).

Oh, James. Yes Word reads/produces RTF files. For quite a time it was the only way to have the references formated with Endnote® in Word. Now there is a submenu for Word that does it in either Endnote or Word.

Rigas

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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #8 - Sep 14th, 2010, 7:40am
 
Yes, keeping track of note numbers is important (although with Ulysses at least it doesn't matter if the numbers are consecutive or in any particular order; what matters is that each one is unique).

My solution to needing to type the brackets (or whatever you use) and tracking numbers so they remain unique is:
1) Typinator (or other text-expander) to to produce brackets with convenient shortcut;
2) A note in Tinderbox set up to list the numbers used for footnotes. (Of course Tinderbox can do this;-) A glance at the note tells me which numbers have been used and, therefore, which one to use next. I just keep this note open when working in this mode.

As I said, my solutions may seem a bit odd and are undoubtedly rather idiosyncratic, but they work for me.
I'd be interested in hearing other solutions.
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #9 - Sep 14th, 2010, 11:46am
 
Thanks for an excellent discussion. I use Ulysses as James does, for academic writing, and I discovered early on that I could keep better track of footnote references and the footnotes that attach to them by using descriptive names rather than numbers. In Ulysses, any string between the "start tags" and "stop tags" (James uses curly brackets, I use straight ones) can refer to a note. So in the text I'll have something like [[AquinasVer]] where I want to have a footnote to Aquinas's De veritate, and then in the notes pane have [[AquinasVer-Text of note]]. This makes it easier to keep track of the notes and their references if I move around or delete sections of an essay (with their notes).

To some, I suppose a discussion like this makes Ulysses sound like a giant step backward: even in WordStar (anyone else here old enough to remember that?) you didn't have to keep track of your footnote references. But I find that the clarity that comes from having my notes visible always on a side panel, and the discipline that comes from deciding what to call my notes, more than makes up in intellectual efficiency for the little bit of manual keyboard work. And now that I've discovered Tinderbox and seen how Ulysses help it make footnotes into footnotes, it seems even more valuable.

All best,
Steve
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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #10 - Sep 14th, 2010, 1:11pm
 
I do remember Wordstar and on a PC Spellbinder !! The discussion here is only among old guys (no youngsters? no women? Where are the hypertext writers !!)

Another simple solution to track numbers is to have an agent that collects all notes with "footnote" prototype (in my case). Then see in outline mode the number of notes (by choosing Columns in the view menu). If I have 3 my next "footnote" will be 4.

That works in sequential notes. It doesnt if you what to insert a note. I suspect that Tinderbow has the interesting information stocked somewhere by necessity for tracking the outlines and links.

Any of the two Marks knows where we can find the information (number of the link to a footnote) and use it?


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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #11 - Sep 18th, 2010, 5:34pm
 
I think the problem here is a lack of a standard amongst word processing (WP) apps for indicating how footnotes are encoded. Forcing TB to try an fix the problem for probably a handful of users in each WP app seems the wrong target.

Meanwhile, have you looked a at macros & stamps. With appropriate TB code in a stamp (perhaps leveraging a macro to save amount of typing needed) I suspect it should be possible for those using [WP app X] to insert [WP app X]'s style of foot note marker. In the case of something like Word, this could be a Word macro which IIRC uses a [] ( or [[]]?) notation.

It's also worth considering the complexity of the issue here. TB, though generally using small notes, has no concept of a 'page'. Conversely a WP app is irrevocably tied to a virtual paper page. On-same-page footnotes make sense in the latter concept but not the former.

For those with this footnote issue, I'd advise using fora associated with [your WP app] to ascertain the exact 'code' needed to mark up a footnote.  Only with the latter can fellow users here help you with appropriate TB code (if possible) to get correct export.

For may part, I'm happy to help experiment with Word 2004/X, but I don't have any of the other WP apps mentioned.
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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #12 - Sep 19th, 2010, 3:58am
 
Thanks Mark A. for your interest.
You are certainly right.
WP 2004/X is a LARGE market , aint it? All of my fellow companions in my Institute use it (independently of system, windows or mac OX) and all of my research partners: that is 2000 persons in 65 countries... I only know of the growing complexuniverse of WP  tools in Europe and USA/Canada. Sad
Sad, maybe, but that is hegemony !

Quote:
In the case of something like Word, this could be a Word macro which IIRC uses a [] ( or [[]]?) notation.


What is IIRC ?

Rigas
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2010, 3:59am by Rigas Arvanitis »  

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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #13 - Sep 19th, 2010, 10:31am
 
IIRC = "If I Recall Correctly"
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Re: Exporting notes as footnotes
Reply #14 - Sep 19th, 2010, 4:09pm
 
IIRC is a common web abbreviation for the phrase "if I recall correctly". Sorry for that, such abbreviations are more obvious to English-as-first-language speakers.

Many people have Word installed, though on the Mac it seems serious 'writers' (as in users of word processors vs. authors) seem to use other apps such as Nissus, Mellel, etc. I've used Word on Mac/PC since the 90s but - for instance - I have probably used its footnoting feature on a handful of occasions. Footnoting is a pretty niche feature, even if some people use it all the time. That's what I was getting at. In other words, it would perhaps be better to pressure word Processor app vendors to use a more consistent method rather than asking Eastgate to develop per-app footnoting export.
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2010, 4:10pm by Mark Anderson »  

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