Welcome, Guest. Please Login
Tinderbox
  News:
IMPORTANT MESSAGE! This forum has now been replaced by a new forum at http://forum.eastgate.com and no further posting or member registration is allowed. The forum is still accessible via read-only access for reference purposes. If you wish to discuss content here, please use the new forum. N.B. - posting in the new forum requires a fresh registration in the new forum (sorry - member data can't be ported).
  HomeHelpSearchLogin  
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
DTD for tbx? (Read 12599 times)
rik
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 20

DTD for tbx?
Dec 07th, 2010, 3:08pm
 
i've been using TBX for awhile (v3), but am just gearing up for some (lecture) authoring and reviewing 2010 alternatives.  TBX still has game!  MarkA in particular, your efforts at  (URL to acrobatfaq SLASH atbref5 here; i'm not allowed a real url i guess:)  increase the utility of TBX considerably.  thanks!

but i'm struck by how much more straight-forward many of these export issues would be if Eastgate provided a DTD or (even better!) schema for TBX?  have i just missed this?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Mark Anderson
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

User - not staff!

Posts: 5689
Southsea, UK
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #1 - Dec 7th, 2010, 4:49pm
 
How would you use such a DTD as part of export from Tinderbox?

You might find this page of interests - http://www.maparent.ca/tinderbox/ - though note is dates from 2004.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2010, 5:17pm by Mark Anderson »  

--
Mark Anderson
TB user and Wiki Gardener
aTbRef v6
(TB consulting - email me)
WWW shoantel   IP Logged
rik
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 20

Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #2 - Dec 7th, 2010, 6:09pm
 
Quote:
How would you use such a DTD as part of export from Tinderbox?


well, i guess this is the standard place for me to begin ANY XML processing, via Python or esp. Java/Xerces/AJAX/... tools.  you seem to know XSL and XPath better than I, but i always thought of solid DTD (schema) characterizations of source and destination as the best specs for those, too?

Quote:
You might find this page of interests - http://www.maparent.ca/tinderbox/


right, that was an early page in my searching!  note that Marc's DTD, ( and .rtc, .rtg) files are now dead links.

Quote:
though note is dates from 2004.


right(:  and so the LACK of progress in the last 7 years is sort of news-worthy all by itself, isn't it?  also, IMAGES ARE CRITICAL in the notes i've produced/will produce.  and so i am dogging my v.3 TBX to stay clear of what it seems the current v.5 non-support.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2010, 12:01am by rik »  
  IP Logged
Mark Bernstein
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

designer of
Tinderbox

Posts: 2871
Eastgate Systems, Inc.
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #3 - Dec 7th, 2010, 7:16pm
 
The downside of publishing a DTD or schema is that we could easily limit growth of future versions without actually benefiting anyone very much.  

In practice, Tinderbox's XML files are easy to parse with any of the tools you mentioned.  We're happy to answer questions.

Better still, Tinderbox export templates should permit you to export information to whatever xml scheme you prefer to handle.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
rik
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 20

Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #4 - Dec 7th, 2010, 11:22pm
 
@MarkB, it's nice to hear from you!

Quote:
The downside of publishing a DTD or schema is that we could easily limit growth of future versions without actually benefiting anyone very much.  


no worries, these are expected to change, cf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/dtd/.  it would benefit at least ME (any others?) by allowing  tools that begin from these starting points.

Quote:
In practice, Tinderbox's XML files are easy to parse with any of the tools you mentioned.
 

let's take my situation: i  have .tbx (v3) files that i want to open to a wider audience.  i may/not want to use the current TBX tool to author additional content.  if i can easily script processing of past/future TBX content into new XML-based formats (OPML, but also ontologies, mindMaps, ...) then authoring via TBX is a good investment.  otherwise i am trapped behind TBX 's Code:
^somewhat^idiosyncratic^tbx^scripting@macros^ 

... meaning both me and any potential collaborators are all dependent on ... @MarkB!  (and while Micro$oft is the last of my worries, exactly how long have you had a port to non-MacOS platforms on your list?!)  

i'm not saying you're not working hard enough; i'm suggesting that if you opened the process up a bit more, more of us could help!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2010, 11:48pm by rik »  
  IP Logged
Mark Anderson
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

User - not staff!

Posts: 5689
Southsea, UK
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #5 - Dec 8th, 2010, 4:43am
 
@rik, none of the following argues against your request, but I hope makes the status quo a little clearer...

View Tinderbox as an app that happens to store its data in XML form rather than a specialist XML creation tool/XML editor and the lack of a TB-specific DTD isn't so surprising. Direct editing of TB XML is, from my experience as a TB community helper, an uncommon event (or those who do it never seek assistance).

Though I know what DTD, XSL and XLST are in principle, I've not used them - lest anyone be looking to me for guidance on these topics. That's why I pointed to the link I did, as it seemed to indicate a TB user who understands the subject.

The aTbRef website is my own private initiative, to share my TB knowledge with the community, and lives on my web server. Thus the reason the domain of the resource is not connected with Tinderbox/Eastgate. There's no dark secret behind the URL, I just happened to have spare space/bandwidth at acrobatfaq.com (a domain I had for a moribund Acrobat-related project)!

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2010, 8:00am by Mark Anderson »  

--
Mark Anderson
TB user and Wiki Gardener
aTbRef v6
(TB consulting - email me)
WWW shoantel   IP Logged
Mark Bernstein
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

designer of
Tinderbox

Posts: 2871
Eastgate Systems, Inc.
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #6 - Dec 8th, 2010, 7:31am
 
If you're up to writing code that consumes a dtd, Tinderbox's temPlate language will take you no time to master.  Nowadays, you can do almost anything you want with, literally, a handful of elements.

That's clearly the route for opml.

(No, neither the dtd nor XML processing in general represent a significant obstacle to cross-platform development.)

Why not send us more detail on what you want to do? We might be able to work out ways and means. The way we're using "dtd" and "schema" interchangebly here, for example, is suggestive.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
rik
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 20

Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #7 - Dec 9th, 2010, 10:23pm
 
@MarkA,  you say:   Quote:
View Tinderbox as an app that happens to store its data in XML form rather than a specialist XML creation tool/XML editor

this sounds like M$oft's line:  we write XML files; it's just that no one else can read them!  (i think i've heard similar comments around TBX  re: Omni's under-observance of OPML standards?)

@MarkB, i hear you saying the status quo is just fine.  it's your baby, you get to decide whatever.  

i've written (and it seems will continue to have to write, until i decide it isn't worth the bother) multiple TBS templates to extract from your XML.  each is a painful exercise in "i wonder what will happen if i try THIS!"  what i do know is that the template language has moved considerably from the v3 that i use (cuz that's what i've authored in) and the current spec.

Quote:
(No, neither the dtd nor XML processing in general represent a significant obstacle to cross-platform development.)

again, i actively avoid the M$oft platform (tho i'm starting to get similarly queazy feelings about the MacO$ platform!), so i simply mentioned the port as an example of your development cycle time: you've been saying "... We're hard at work, designing Tinderbox for Windows. It's a big project; we'll be as fast as we can!"  (cf. http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/download.html) for as long as i've been a user!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Mark Anderson
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

User - not staff!

Posts: 5689
Southsea, UK
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #8 - Dec 10th, 2010, 7:21am
 
OPML and OO got raised as a topic because the (generally) non-tech users of OO's OPML with TB assumed the latter's 'text' attribute was part of the standard and thus got confused when import didn't "just work". TB's OPML import now accommodates the 'text' attribute, mapping it to $Text. Users point up unexpected result from emerging loose standard, app changes to accommodate it; no smoke here.
Back to top
 
 

--
Mark Anderson
TB user and Wiki Gardener
aTbRef v6
(TB consulting - email me)
WWW shoantel   IP Logged
Mark Bernstein
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

designer of
Tinderbox

Posts: 2871
Eastgate Systems, Inc.
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #9 - Dec 10th, 2010, 8:13am
 
The difference between the Microsoft Office XML spec and Tinderbox is that the Microsoft XML is tremendously elaborate and complex, where tinderbox's XML very simple. Take a look, it's largely self-documenting.

(I think this is a reddish herring)

What is going to consume the dtd, anyway?

Is there a business need for a dtd? Would a schema be equally good? Would a sample parser be equally good?
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Charles Turner
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 180
New York, USA
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #10 - Dec 10th, 2010, 9:51am
 
rik-

I have to concur with Mark B.

I took me about 1/2 a day to write a SAX-based parser for the current Tbox XML file format without any other documentation than the file itself. If you've spent any time actually using Tinderbox, it's pretty easy to understand what's going on in the file.

I'd also take issue with the idea that the format has "moved considerably" since version 3. If anything, I'd say there are simplifications that haven't been made in an effort to maintain backward compatibility.

If you want to be negative about Tbox, I suggest being a lot more specific in your presentation of your issues.

C.

Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Charles Turner
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 180
New York, USA
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #11 - Dec 10th, 2010, 10:23am
 
Here's some data modeling I did around the Tinderbox file format:

http://vze26m98.net/tbx/Tbox_Datamodeling.zip

My intent was to help with the work I was doing, and not to produce the actual data format in exacting detail, so there may be some minor inconsistencies.

But if you actually dig as deep as these documents go, you'll see how minor those inconsistencies are.

C.

Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
rik
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 20

Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #12 - Dec 10th, 2010, 7:17pm
 
@MarkB,  i'm not wed to DTDs, a schema would be OK,  i think many prefer .rtc, .rtg these days, and a Java implemation would be swell!

(i cop to the red herringSmiley

thanks for your notes Charles.  and i apologize to all if i'm coming off as negative.  i am simply trying to image a better TBX.

my 'business need' such as it is is an anticipated attempt to export to OpenOffice (i see OO is overloaded in this namespace) Impress.  TBX does much of the hierarchic organizational work i need, but then i need to construct slides with positioning info, and i have not found TBX so good at maintaining that.  LaTeX/Beamer/ via Lyx is another possible target, but doing slide layout with these is painful, too.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Charles Turner
Full Member
*
Offline



Posts: 180
New York, USA
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #13 - Dec 10th, 2010, 11:24pm
 
So you're trying to write XML like this?


<office:body>
 <office:presentation>
   <draw:page draw:name="page1" draw:style-name="dp1" [...] >
     <draw:frame draw:style-name="gr1" draw:layer="layout" svg:width="6.35cm" [...] >
       <draw:text-box>
         <text:p>Here&apos;s some text</text:p>
       </draw:text-box>
     </draw:frame>
     <draw:frame presentation:style-name="pr1" draw:layer="layout" svg:width="25.199cm" [...] >
       <draw:text-box>
         <text:p>
           <text:span text:style-name="T1">Another text</text:span>
           <text:span text:style-name="T1"><text:line-break/></text:span>
           <text:span text:style-name="T1">too much</text:span>
         </text:p>
       </draw:text-box>
     </draw:frame>
     <presentation:notes draw:style-name="dp2">
       <draw:page-thumbnail draw:style-name="gr2" draw:layer="layout" svg:width="13.968cm" [...] />
       <draw:frame presentation:style-name="pr2" draw:layer="layout" svg:width="17.271cm" [...] >
         <draw:text-box/>
       </draw:frame>
     </presentation:notes>
   </draw:page>
   <presentation:settings presentation:mouse-visible="false"/>
 </office:presentation>
</office:body>


If so, I'd say you've got far more difficulties with OpenOffice's XML than Tinderbox's.

In this case, why wouldn't you template Tbx to export XML through the HTML or Nakajoji views? Why fuss with the raw Tbx file at all?

If you're only dealing with outline information, you'll need to synthesize your own positioning information. The outline hierarchy is part of Tbx attribute system, you can use it to construct a conversion system to centimeters (from what I see above).

But if you're dealing with Tbx Maps, you can use their X/Y information to establish positioning. I believe Mark Anderson's TbxRef has the stuff you need on canvas and unit size to base a conversion on.

Charles
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Mark Anderson
YaBB Administrator
*
Offline

User - not staff!

Posts: 5689
Southsea, UK
Re: DTD for tbx?
Reply #14 - Dec 11th, 2010, 8:52am
 
Re maps - when (abortively) trying to draw maps in HTML via export, I did notice that different map measurements don't scale coherently. It's no big deal and doesn't affect TB but if you export a map at zoom -3, so it is - say - all on screen at export time, you may find a liner scale to all measurements to give an export at normal zoom won't work. Note too that the box model for TB map icons is not like HTML/CSS (TB draws border width into the content box compressing the latter). This doesn't matter per se but will confuse if trying to export maps based on TB attribute data alone. The folks at Emberlight do nice HTML direct from TB XML, so it can be done - though Emberlight\s methodology for doing so is not public. Likewise, TB standard export can't export map links but the info's there in the XML.

Sorry if that's a bit off topic but trying to save @rik a trip down a known rabbit hole. I think map export is on the TB roadmap, having perforce to wait for recent under-the-hood restructuring of how TB maps are drawn.
Back to top
 
 

--
Mark Anderson
TB user and Wiki Gardener
aTbRef v6
(TB consulting - email me)
WWW shoantel   IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print