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Coordinated windows of the same file (Read 5304 times)
Rigas Arvanitis
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Coordinated windows of the same file
Aug 13th, 2014, 6:45am
 
In Tbx5 I used different windows of the same file in Outline view. This permitted to look at different parts of the Outline independently one from the other.
In Tbx6 if I can open two outlines of the same file, but they are moving in a coordinated way. I am sad about this, since I use a part of the outline to modify/write notes in another part, as two text windows opened simultaneously.
Is there any way to disconnect the two windows?

PS: Where is the zoom  that existed in Tbx5 windows?

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s285/sh/97677ce0-e965-44fe-8cc6-4ced858fdc4f/94e4...


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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #1 - Aug 13th, 2014, 8:05am
 
There is no zoom button. The view responds to trackpad/mouse zoom gestures or use key shortcuts or the View menu (which lists the shortcuts).

Two windows will always (I think) in v6 have the same note focus - i.e. the right pane. To see different note text, one of the texts must be opened in a tear-off window (View menu or Cmd+Opt+X). Note that such text windows do not show key attributes, but if the window has focus Get Info for that note can be opened via Cmd+Opt+I - and if desired the pop-over can be 'torn' off from the text window to a separate Get Info window.

Opening new main view windows always results in a 2-tab window: map and outline, map selected. Although the selection and text pane focus is the same across all windows, the view is *not* scrolled if the selection is altered by another window to focus on a note not in the window's view. In other words, you can use a separate window to look at the layout of a separate part of the outline.

Summary. To view 2 different part of the Outline (or 2 different maps, etc.) open a new window.  To view 2 different notes' $Text, at least one note's $Text must be opened in a Text window. To see attributes for 2 different notes, at least one note's Get Info pop-over must be opened and torn off into a separate window.
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #2 - Aug 13th, 2014, 8:22am
 
Do we know why TBX 6 has been designed this way?

On the face of it, having the text in both windows change when I change the focus in only one of them is a less intuitive way of working than version 5, so there must be some compensatory benefits for the change and I'd like to understand what they are so I can take advantage of them.
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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #3 - Aug 13th, 2014, 8:42am
 
I'd follow on the same line of argument. Multiple windows was an advantage. What was missing in Tbx5 (in my opinion) is a way to make windows sticky in order to group them in your screen. Making the Explorer view of Tbx 5 the main view window of Tbx 6 is not really satisfcactory

Komoru Kou http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/forum//YaBB.pl?num=1406041509 in this Forum seems to have the same feeling.

Hoping some evolution will come on this front.

Let me give an example where multiple windows is nice:

- Translating from one language to another: having two text windows (language A and language B) both of which being notes in a different parts of the overall file, notes being far away in the Outline, and two more windows that show the in the  background, the Outline zoomed  beneath the text windows. This is a fantastic set-up.
- A sort of large TODO file, each window focussing on different projects, showing two different "projects" that are in fact inter-reated (as is often the case). Of course this is also manageable with switching Tabs. But not really in such a visual manner, which is one of the most extraordinary features of Tinderbox.

I find overall Tbx6 to be less intuitive, more "machine-like", less based on the screen, on the graphics, and much more on the computing (agents and attributes are omnipresent now, even in the explanations needed to answer questions). But my dissatisfaction maybe temporary and it might be the result of too much former Tinderbox style. I can agree with that (being older also doesnt help!)

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« Last Edit: Aug 13th, 2014, 8:51am by Rigas Arvanitis »  

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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #4 - Aug 13th, 2014, 12:00pm
 
My understanding is the new design is a pragmatic reflection of a number of factors:
  • People are keen for some form of iOS partner to tinderbox and such devices don't support multi-window devices, but do support tabs. It thus makes sense to have a UI with some commonality otherwise people will then just complain about differences.
  • In general the move with Mac apps is towards a single window - which is also something that some (not all) users have asked for.
  • Getting numerous windows to stay synched (especially text windows) was difficult in v5; this avoids the problem.
  • v5 was built in Metrowerks - that pre-dates OSX - and v6 uses current xCode Cocoa frameworks.  The two differ and some things just don't translate across and/or can be done better in a different way.
Eastgate have listened to feedback and the UI design is not yet set in stone. Thus many pop-overs can be torn off to be separate windows and $Text can be opened as stand alone windows. It's worthwhile reporting direct to Eastgate (i.e. not here) on existing TB tasks you now can't do or find difficult in v6. Likely they may be accommodated even if it is by a slightly different method.
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #5 - Aug 13th, 2014, 12:24pm
 
Multiple tabs are often a useful substitute for, and sometimes an improvement upon, multiple windows.

Text windows are easily overlooked in Tinderbox 6; this should address the translation issue Rigas Arvanitis raises.

The most common scenario for a separate outline window is the list of sources (or list of TODOs) that resides in its own container and that is constantly kept open at one edge of the screen.   This is easy to do in Tinderbox Six and works quite well. It's not yet persistent between sessions; that will come.

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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #6 - Aug 13th, 2014, 12:32pm
 
I suspect the way a new widow opens with 2 tabs, map selected, and 50% pane split people may have overlooked the Cmd+3/Cmd+4/Cmd+5 toggles for all main pane, all text pane or split.

Edited:
The correct commands are, via Window menu:
- Text only (Cmd+4)
- View and Text (Cmd+5)
- View only (Cmd+6)


An underlying issue is what people want/expect from v5 is to open a new view, i.e. of the type they want (far more likely Outline than Map) and with no text pane. In due course if shortcut or menu items offered that in one step I think people would find the process slightly less strange. For now, having opened a new window the user has to close unwanted tabs/select the view actually desired and drag the slider to hide the text pane.
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2014, 6:19am by Mark Anderson »  

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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #7 - Aug 13th, 2014, 4:55pm
 
I'm glad that tabs are available -- I can see how they can be useful for hiding stuff away that you'll want to refer to occasionally without needing it constantly in sight. But I don't use them, mainly I think for two reasons.

Firstly, there as yet aren't any shortcuts to navigate between them -- so for example, it's easier to toggle between map mode and outline mode in the same tab than it is to switch to another one. The second is that even if I do use a new tab, I can't see different text in both (without the additional step of tearing off a text window which is not always what you want).

I do occasionally use the new window facility, but again, I find the 'all text panels are the same' feature distracting -- I don't understand the circumstances in which it would be useful.

All this is quite possibly my fault for not understanding and adapting to new ways of working.
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #8 - Aug 13th, 2014, 5:16pm
 
Shortcuts for cycling tabs should be in the next release (if you're in the Backstage, try the latest beta - but I can't discuss beta features here).

To see two different $Text select the first note and Cmd+Opt+X to open a stand-alone Text Window. Now select note 2 and let its $text load in the main window right tab.

Before it gets mentioned, again, currently (v6.0.2) only saves 1 window at the end of the session. This limitation is known and at some point a means to save all (most?) open windows will be added though I can't say when. So people don't need to comment on this 'feature' - it's known.
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #9 - Aug 14th, 2014, 4:14am
 
Mark

Thanks for the info regarding the tab shortcuts -- I'm not on the backstage bus so didn't know.

I do know and use the tear off text facility, but it's only useful in certain circumstances (e.g. wanting to keep an individual note open for reference). It's unwieldy if you want more than a couple of notes open, for example, to have two outlines open at a time and go down each of them looking at the contents of each note in each outline as you do so -- that's not currently possible because the text panel follows each click.

As I said, I can't think of a use for the text panel behaving the way it does -- that's why I asked because I'm obviously missing something and I might find it useful.
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #10 - Aug 14th, 2014, 6:16am
 
TB 5 only allows one Explorer view. The original v6 design only allowed one window so having two views open with different note/text on displays was never a design intent. People asked for multiple windows so that could see more main views [sic] at once. Of course, when a new window opens it is the new-doc style default, 2 panes/map selected/text as 50% of width. If it opened with one tab of the intend type of main view I think the result would be less unintuitive. That may well come but Eastgate have more pressing feature issues to deal with first.

To summarise. Don't assume side-by-sdie explorer view was an intent, it's simply suggested because of the way new windows open. To get a new main view of type X, you need to open a main window, hide the text pane (Cmd+6), close unwanted tabs and right click the remaining tab to set the desired view type. So, some assembly required.

I'll correct my reference up-thread to the pane display commands - the numbers were off by one!
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2014, 6:20am by Mark Anderson »  

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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #11 - Aug 14th, 2014, 7:01am
 
OK -- thanks for the background.
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Rigas Arvanitis
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Re: Coordinated windows of the same file
Reply #12 - Aug 14th, 2014, 8:53am
 
We do need a manual Smiley
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