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view multiple note content + attributes? (Read 5666 times)
trianta
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view multiple note content + attributes?
Sep 08th, 2014, 4:36am
 
cmd-alt-x was a great way (for me at least) to edit the content _and_ attributes of a note

in tbx6 if i want to view multiple note contents i can still do so by opening them with the same shortcut, but i can't compare (or quickly edit) their attributes

"view and text" (cmd-5) allows me to see both content and attributes but only for the selected note, even in a new window (cmd-sh-n)

in fact all tabs, in all windows, and all views focus on one selected/in focus note. This is a major change in tbx6 that does not make sense to me

tbx5 gave you the ability to see different groupings of notes from different points of view, now everything (except for text windows) revolves around a single note

so,
- is there a way to view and edit multiple note content _and_ attributes?
- can a new window display content and attributes of its own selected note?
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #1 - Sep 8th, 2014, 9:58am
 
Instead of opening a new window, open a new tab for each note. Where formerly you'd switch windows to compare the notes, now you switch tabs.
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trianta
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #2 - Sep 8th, 2014, 11:17am
 
hi mark

the process now is:
1. select note (mouse)
2. right click (mouse)
3. open in new tab (mouse)
4. cmd-alt-[ to go back to map (multiple times for more than one tab)
5. select note (with mouse) ... (and so on)

used to be
1. select note (mouse)
2. cmd-alt-x
3. cmd-` to switch back to map
4. select note (mouse)

plus:
i could place windows next to each other (important for my bad short term memory)

i could use system shortcut for "application windows" and view / navigate through notes, _and_ maps, outlines, etc. In fact cmd-` would let me cycle through everything (in every open file, which may have been overkill), but now if i want to have different views into my notes, i need to open up new windows for each scope, and then tabs, and then navigate using cmd-` _plus_ cmd-alt-] to get to the note I want

note text windows where reasonably sized, whereas "tab per note" windows are as wide and high as the "parent" view (i.e. map. outline, whatever). So when i go from a map, which can normally take the full screen, to a note I have to view and edit text that spans the whole 2000 pixels (would already be unreadable, not to mention ugly, on 1000)

i used to press cmd-w to close a note (window), but now cmd-w closes the whole thing (and i have to open again from file-open) -- using the mouse to close tabs is annoying and slow, and even if there is a particular shortcut for closing the tab, it'll still feel like a waste of muscle memory

v6 has completely broken the zen-like note taking and (simple) editing flow of v5. And this is not because of different kbd-shortcuts (i'd learn those just fine), but i think it is because the note itself is weakened in text window view (i understand the logic of synced outline / map and note content view, I used it a explore view in v.5)

i'm really hoping we can have a rich "note in text window view" again

thanks again Mark
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J Fallows
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #3 - Sep 8th, 2014, 11:53am
 
Quote:
Where formerly you'd switch windows to compare the notes, now you switch tabs.


To Mark B: As discussed over the months, all in all I find TB6 to be a huge step forward in functionality, elegance, and so on. But, also as discussed over the months, I agree that there is a specific functionality loss in the shift from a multi-windowed, to a single-window/multi-tab, paradigm. That loss is the ability to see different views / windows / parts of a file at the same time. If you have several windows, all of them can be on-screen at the same time; with several tabs, only one is viewable at a time.

This is why I'm so glad that you've said a persistent multi-windowed state will be possible in TB6. ("Persistent," as MB knows but others may not, in the sense that a given multi-window arrangement can be saved from one session to the next.) Thanks for your work in developing this feature, which addresses what I find to be the only pain-point in TB6.
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Simon Knight
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #4 - Sep 13th, 2014, 6:34am
 
Hi,  I am looking at Tinderbox for probably the third time having used version 5.7-5.9 for a while some years ago.  As such I am having to relearn how to use Tinderbox.  One feature I liked, in version 5, was being able to press the spacebar to view a note along with the ability to have more than one note displayed at any time.  Am I correct in thinking from reading this thread and trying the demo version of 6 that these features are no longer available?

Also, is it me or are some of the menus following a trend on Mac to be very wasteful when it comes to using screen real estate with large borders and gaps between items.  It seems to be a trend in Apps updated to run on Mavericks and is one that I am not keen on.

best wishes

Simon
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Mark Anderson
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #5 - Sep 13th, 2014, 12:21pm
 
Quote:
Am I correct in thinking from reading this thread and trying the demo version of 6 that these features are no longer available?

No. You can open a separate text window as a 'torn-off' window, via the View menu. The extra window, as at a 6.0.4, get saved on close or show key attributes, but I believe will do so in due course once the window management controls are finished.

Quote:
are some of the menus following a trend on Mac to be very wasteful when it comes to using screen real estate

Wrong inference, I think.  TB can't keep going on the old framework (pre-OS X!) and the new Apple frameworks reflect newer trends. The v6 UI is adapting as it goes and Eastgate are receptive to reasoned argument for (implementable) ideas.

v6 already supports multiple main windows, which can also be made all main view, split (default) or all text. Once ongoing dev to save the state of open window(s) is complete I think this issued is resolved.

An upside of moving to more current frameworks is the opportunity to support some subset of functions on iOS which is something only subset of users have been after for a long time.

It's easy to find things to pick on with any big change like this, but on balance v6 does more, if a little differently.
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J Fallows
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #6 - Sep 13th, 2014, 2:25pm
 
Quote:
One feature I liked, in version 5, was being able to press the spacebar to view a note along with the ability to have more than one note displayed at any time.  Am I correct in thinking from reading this thread and trying the demo version of 6 that these features are no longer available?


I really like, use, and rely on the many-windows-in-view-at-once feature of various programs, from Scrivener to TinderBox. While people who are in the beta-test program (known as Backstage, details here: http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/TinderboxSix.html ) are not supposed to talk about any pre-release features, I have every reason to believe that release versions of the program will soon have this feature too. Also, Mark Bernstein has said several times that he plans to do so.

Fine point: Even with the current release version, you *can* display many windows at the same time. All you can't do is preserve that setup when you save and close the file. This last feature is the one I am very confident will be available in release versions soon.

For the record, I have no connection to Tinderbox or Eastgate except as a customer, but as someone who makes heavy use of "idea-organizing" software I think that TB6 is overall a big step forward in utility, powerful, and general worth-it-ness.
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Simon Knight
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #7 - Sep 14th, 2014, 3:48am
 
Thanks for the prompt replies.  I am glad that it seems likely that the multiple views of note contents is set to return although I still have not figured out how to display them in V6.04.

As to the updated frameworks.  Yes I fully understand that software has to keep up with the latest tools but I find it unfortunate that with Mavericks this seems to result in ugly inefficient popups and menus.  For instance looking the get info dialogue there is masses of grey space, the field labels are closer to the box they don't refer to rather than the fields they do, the list on the left uses a small font size making the list look pinched.  The first item is highlighted in dark grey which I naturally read as a heading bar and apparently there is no way of closing, moving or resizing the info box.  These move close resize features have been available in software since GUIs were developed in the 1980s so I expect them to be present.

Oops the following is a bit of a rant against the world, sorry Wink
I believe there is a worrying trend in desktop/laptop computing in that the software being supplied is being dumbed down for the iPad generation use to the "finger painting" interface.  I suspect that iPads and their software are far more profitable so users who require there software to do more than look pretty are being ignored.  I have come back to Tinderbox from OmniOutliner where again the software has been updated to run on "modern hardware".  One of the strengths of Omni software was slick interfaces and the ability to use Applescript to add functionality.  That all seems to be in the past as it seems that the update has broken the applescript, they are unable to offer support and worse the core of skilled users/programmers seems to have left the forums.  My Todo and Daybook outlines no longer run on the modern software, I have tried to fix the scripts and failed. I am uncertain how long the old version will continue to run on new OSs so I need to find a new application to host my notes and todos etc.
End of the rant!

A review of the applications available such as Curio, CP Notebook has brought me back here as Tinderbox is the only application that offers "processing" of notes coupled with an friendly, active user forum.  So I will be upgrading even though I have no idea why it is thought a good idea to have odd looking semi transparent dialogues.

Ooo ech!  I have just discovered that if the "get info" is moved from its associated note it gains a title bar, a resize button and a full screen option.  In full screen it blanks my second screen - I think this is a bad thing!

Thanks for reading
best wishes
Simon
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #8 - Sep 14th, 2014, 10:35am
 
But however loudly one shouts, the kids will still play on one's lawn. Software moves on. Tablets/phablets and multi-device/location editing is here to stay; as a 50+ yo studying with a course mostly half my age this is painfully apparent. TB isn't best aided by staying in the past. The frameworks used for v5, for better or worse, can't cut it now. Moving forward brings compromise - taking a glass-half-full approach helps.

v6.0.0 started with one two-panewindow. Within four v.N.0.x versions it's added back - appropriately - a number of carefully considered 'tear-off' options for pop-ups as well as multiple main view windows; suport for saving multiple windows on close is under test. It's not like Eastgate isn't listening. But, UI design is hard, harder still with disparate groups of TB users with very different wants.

At some point, Apple OS changes will doubtless make non-Cocoa apps not run. So it is truly a case of march or die. Fine tuning the layout of pop-ups does - I suspect - involve a lot of unseen work. So, playing with font sizes etc. is all work that, with limited developer assets, poaches effort from more improvement-relevant work.

All of this isn't to say that as a long term deep user of TB ther' aren't things I'm not wild about. For example, better RTF for some means more work for plain text users.  But, like J Fallows, I think the general trajectory is to the better. In kvetching about changes it's too easy to overlook improvements.  Better pervasive Unicode support is one such; I may work in English with no accents, etc., but much of what I work on isn't. And so on…

Bottom line, I do encourage you to upgrade. If there are things that really trouble you in v6, do write to Eastgate and explain. N.B.: writing here doesn't ensure it's read/acted on - this is a user-to-user forum as opposed to vendor support forum, even if MB posts here from time to time. If it's worth complaining about, it's worth reporting to the developer in person.

Meanwhile, as moderator i'm happy to help with practical problems, as far as my expertise allows.
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Popovers
Reply #9 - Sep 14th, 2014, 12:18pm
 
I may reply to this at more length later.

I receive angry email complaining that Tinderbox is non-standard.  I get angry email complaining that Tinderbox has adopted a standard behavior that the correspondent dislikes.  I get angry email that Tinderbox isn't usable because the fonts are too small, or the drop shadows are old-fashioned, or that popovers are bad, or that palettes are bad.  I get angry email that Tinderbox is too complicated, often followed by angry email that some action that’s perfectly natural would be much simpler if only we had another command for it.

Shadows: A Software Allegory: http://www.markbernstein.org/Nov13/Shadowsasoftwareallegory.html

With regard to the specific issue of popovers vs. dialogs: dialogs have been at least mildly deprecated for several years now. The popover does pretty much what the old modal dialog did, but (a) doesn't need an OK button, (b) has a larger click target for dismissal, (c) can indicate what it refers to. My guess is that there's some solid research behind the change, though I don't know where or whether it's been published.

In point of fact, there's recently been an intense discussion in the development community that suggests iPad and iPhone development per se is far less profitable than Macintosh development. This surprised everybody.

I'd ask you to cut my colleagues at Omni some slack. My own experience is that their support is pretty good -- especially considering how large Omni has become!  Between summer vacations, bracketed by WWDC in June and the Fall iPhone/iPad/AppleWatch event in early September, I fancy the Omni developers are a bit busy and under a bit of pressure.

On top of this, there's the perpetual question: should I spend a half hour writing a forum post, or should I be working on Tinderbox Help, or resolving issue #1069 (selecting a new note whilst editing a key attribute without closing the edit session), or writing Get Info>Common Words, or exploring Applescript support, or researching asynchronous testing, or watching Palo Alto?.

I once heard a legendary birdwatcher wax lyrical about Bushnell -- a good line of binoculars but not one you expect legends to carry -- because if you called the factory after 5, David Bushnell would answer the phone and he'd definitely have the answers.  I think that's a good lesson, but there are costs involved: I'm not sure I'd fault Omni if they did pull some developers back.  But I expect it's just a combination of Summer in Sweden, studying Swift, and watching the Watch.
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trianta
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #10 - Sep 14th, 2014, 1:49pm
 
just in case

i decided to make the transition to v6, which means i like it _more_ than v5 (which i absolutely love, more than any other app in fact), and knowing how far tinderbox went on the previous "infrastructure" i can't help but be excited about what's to come

plus, Mark B has always been very Bushnell, and Mark A is great

so, thanks Smiley
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Simon Knight
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Re: view multiple note content + attributes?
Reply #11 - Sep 14th, 2014, 3:44pm
 
Hi,
Honestly, I'm not angry and I apologise if I gave that impression.  I fully accept that certain constraints are placed on developers by the tools that are used/supplied.

For the record I have purchased the upgrade and await my unlock code.

Thank you all for your thought provoking posts

best wishes
Simon
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