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link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi (Read 5121 times)
trianta
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link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Oct 31st, 2014, 4:36am
 
hi

1. when i park a link from selected text inside a note and then turn to another window (not tab) of the same file the parked link circle is empty (it remains in the original window view)

2. in fact i first tried linking from selected text directly to the target note that was visible in the 2nd window, but could not do that either (which would have been better, since I'd skip the extra "parking" step)

i suppose [1] is a bug, and [2] is a temporary(?) limitation -- am I right or am I missing something?

3. also, it would be more useful, and less confusing, if the text displayed in each window (of same file) was that of the selected note (in each window)

thanks Smiley
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Mark Anderson
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2014, 7:43am
 
I'm uncertain, as I've hardly used a second window recently, butI seem to recall you can't drag outside a window to other TB windows - links, notes, etc. I don't know how long that limitation with stand. But I suspect you have your assessment of #1 and #2 the wrong way about. I suggest you're better off dropping a line directly to support about this.

Edit: fixed email ink
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« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2014, 10:26am by Mark Anderson »  

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trianta
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2014, 8:04am
 
thanks Mark
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2014, 11:06am
 
Each window has its own main parking space.  In principle, you could park one link in Window A and another link in Window B.

Parking space link dragging is also restricted to operate within that window; we don't currently support linking between windows.

The current selection is a property of the document, and is shared by all windows.
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trianta
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #4 - Oct 31st, 2014, 1:29pm
 
hi Mark(B)

"we don't currently support linking between windows"

does this mean it may come in at some time? For the record previous versions (5 and back) supported an easier way to link between notes in different windows.


"current selection is a property of the document, and is shared by all windows"

the fact, that each window has its own parking space, but not its own note selection is kind of confusing

i cannot see the use scenario where this choice is helpful. On the other hand, the opposite is useful in a number of situations (comparing two versions of note for the same objective, comparing two different notes, manually merging / cross editing related notes, etc.)

also as in previous point, i believe we used to be able to open two (or more) explorer views and have each display the text of different selected notes

---

i am way out of my league compared to you when it comes to note taking, but is it not counter intuitive to restrict "granularity" and flexibility of note gardening (i think you use the term) according to (computer) document properties?

thank you for your work and your reply as well

cheers
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Mark Bernstein
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multiple windows
Reply #5 - Oct 31st, 2014, 2:17pm
 
A design goal of Tinderbox Six was to reduce dependence on multiple windows. Previous versions of Tinderbox expected that you would use numerous windows all the time; Tinderbox Six strives to make this unnecessary.  Often, what we used to do with multiple windows, we now accomplish with tabs.

When you assert that it is counter-intuitive to restrict flexibility of information gardening "according to (computer) document properties", I think I head an echo of  Edward Mendelson’s recent attack on Microsoft Word http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/oct/21/escape-microsoft-word/ and its document model.

Quote:
The original design of Microsoft Word, in the early 1980s, was a work of clarifying genius, but it had nothing to do with the way writing gets done. The programmers did not think about writing as a sequence of words set down on a page, but instead dreamed up a new idea about what they called a “document.” This was effectively a Platonic idea: the “form” of a document existed as an intangible ideal, and each tangible book, essay, love letter, or laundry list was a partial, imperfect representation of that intangible idea.


Mendelson is interesting but mistaken; his problem is not that the fools at Microsoft persisted in imagining Platonic ideals when they should have been pushing levers, but rather that he's working with a different Platonic ideal -- the wrong ideal -- very firmly in mind.
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« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2014, 2:17pm by Mark Bernstein »  
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trianta
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #6 - Oct 31st, 2014, 4:34pm
 
hi again

> Often, what we used to do with multiple windows, we now accomplish with tabs.

i understand, but there are things -which i mention- that we can now not achieve _with_ tabs (ie efficiently compare note contents side by side). Plus, single window - tabbed interfaces (sorry for the ad hoc nonsense name) have other problems compared to multiple windows (Does it really make sense to have >250 characters on a line in "text-only" view?)

before going on i'd like to say that i've been a fan of tinderbox, of the "tinderbox way", and really admire the work you've been doing, and your wrtings. If this discussion seems out of line or beyond the scope of this forum, please tell me

i see two threads here

1. my specific questions about potential bugs and features (or lack thereof)
2. my two eurocents regarding a couple of more general design decisions


regarding [1], i realize you are not obliged to answer any relevant questions (and MarkA makes it very clear btw, by proposing that i send email directly to info@), and i really appreciate that you do. I don't however find the answers to be specific. Again, your prerogative, and i *really* mean it (i am amazed at how much you get done).

regarding [2], my reaction to Mendelson's recent article (for some reason it got popular) was that it was nostalgia for the typewriter era via WordPerfect proxy -- i told my colleagues and friends that both Word and WordPerfect are geared toward efficiency, not made for helping the creative process. And -as i often do- told them about how Tinderbox (not Scrivener) is the real paradigm shift.

Notes! -- Scattered, easily entered, effortlessly organized, filtered, reorganized, metadata'd (sorry for verbalization), linked to and from, burried into containers, brought up for air, merged, split, and all the rest

and yes, arranged side by side to be compared, cross-edited, etc.

so, i am quite sure that my assertion has nothing to do with echos of Mendelson's attack on MS Word, and a lot to do with the note, not the document, being at the center of many -if not most- messy creative / analytic / synthetic processes


btw, i consider myself more Aristoteleian than Platonic Smiley

cheers
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Mark Bernstein
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #7 - Oct 31st, 2014, 6:35pm
 
I try to be specific when addressing particular features, but I also make an effort to be general here when talking about design.  A chronic problem with this forum is that we all spend a lot of time discussing very small technical points; I think it sometimes helps to step back and talk about things of more general interest.

The question of the efficiency of tabbed interfaces as compared to multi-window interfaces is interesting to discuss, but it's quite clear that there's a very emphatic torque in the Apple frameworks in the direction of single window applications, or one window per document applications. Tinderbox Six makes an effort to comply with that trend where it makes sense to do that.  

As you observe, tabs aren’t a good answer when you want to compare notes. That’s why we added File ▸ New Window and its kin to Tinderbox Six. In addition, we've got Text Windows (which now have key attributes, too) and we’ve got tear-off Get Info popovers, so you've got quite a few multi-window options.

250 characters/line is too many. But you can easily use a narrower window.
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J Fallows
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #8 - Oct 31st, 2014, 7:16pm
 
Quote:
A design goal of Tinderbox Six was to reduce dependence on multiple windows. Previous versions of Tinderbox expected that you would use numerous windows all the time; Tinderbox Six strives to make this unnecessary.  Often, what we used to do with multiple windows, we now accomplish with tabs.

As Mark B knows from previous rounds of exchanges, I am an enormous fan of Tinderbox in general, and of Tinderbox 6 as a big step forward from Tinderbox 5. But the move to the single-window/multi-tab model was, for my particular taste and working style, a significant step back. I very strongly preferred the ability to have a number of windows in view simultaneously on the screen, rather than having to flip back and forth among tabs. One of many virtues of Scrivener, for instance, is that its Open/QuickReference features makes it so easy to have several windows in convenient view.

Thus I very much welcomed the addition to TB6 that Mark B describes here:
Quote:
That’s why we added File ▸ New Window and its kin to Tinderbox Six. In addition, we've got Text Windows (which now have key attributes, too) and we’ve got tear-off Get Info popovers, so you've got quite a few multi-window options.

As someone who uses these features all day every day, I can attest that they work, and that the latest version of TB6 has a reliable way of preserving a multi-window state between sessions, so you don't have to set them up and configure them each time you open the file.
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trianta
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #9 - Nov 1st, 2014, 4:49am
 
> I think it sometimes helps to step back and talk about things of more general interest.

those are some of the most interesting and useful discussions for me

i hadn't noticed we now have key attributes for text windows, thanks for pointing it out. Being able to add new fields (while in text window view) would be nice, just "logging" it here as an idea

J, thank you for the input

cheers
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J Fallows
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #10 - Nov 1st, 2014, 9:18am
 
Quote:
Being able to add new fields (while in text window view) would be nice, just "logging" it here as an idea


Mark A or Mark B will correct me, but I believe that something like this — on the fly addition of Key Attributes — has been added to TB6. I haven't used it so I don't know, but I think your request has been anticipated.
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Mark Anderson
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Re: link parking not working b2ween windows of same fi
Reply #11 - Nov 1st, 2014, 1:04pm
 
Key attributes in tear-off ext windows was added in v6.1.0 (going by the release notes).
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