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Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute? (Read 16005 times)
Henry Stein
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #15 - Jan 23rd, 2012, 1:13pm
 
Although Tinderbox and Zoot offer helpful views of attitibutes and values, for my purposes, Ecco Pro provides the most useful capabilty for analyzing case material, looking for common denominators and themes.  An example of an Ecco Pro outline, with four attribute columns, is shown below.


Creating and using the "Notepad" view tabs, yields views of each attitubute column.  Note that each attribute value is calibrated with its item in the outline, and the parent(s) of each item are shown for reference.  See below.









I realize that Tinderbox may not be able to replicate this at the moment, but I would value the future prospect of this capability.
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Mark Anderson
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #16 - Jan 23rd, 2012, 1:45pm
 
ISTM that you can most (all?) of the latter in TB using agents, container sorts and column view - and without the need for buttons, toolbars and a set UI. The more I use TB, and teach it to others, the more I cherish the fact that there is some self assembly required; harder to start, but greater reward.  You build what you need not what the UI designer thinks you need. TB's strength is incremental formalisation so that emulating app X doesn't do much more than help a small sup group of users whilst misdirecting the rest who'll assume this is the 'correct' way to do everything?

I'm not being deliberately contrarian nor disparaging what be done in different apps, nor individuals workflows. I'm making a general point that the busier the interface gets, the more the user's work is directed down a certain (thought) path and away from TB's core value of avoiding premature formalisation.
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J Fallows
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #17 - Jan 23rd, 2012, 5:25pm
 
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You build what you need not what the UI designer thinks you need. TB's strength is incremental formalisation so that emulating app X doesn't do much more than help a small sup group of users whilst misdirecting the rest who'll assume this is the 'correct' way to do everything?

Different perspectives here could also well reflect different degrees of familiarity and dexterity with different programs. I know Zoot so much better than I know Tinderbox, by virtue of having used it for more than 15 years vs. one year, that to me nothing about it seems confining or artificially formalized in the least. I know what it can do, and what it cannot, so that tuning it exactly to my tastes is second nature. You certainly know Tinderbox better than anyone else except (perhaps!) its designers, so it is a fully and naturally expressive tool in your hands. I believe that "interesting" programs all start out being harder to use than cookie-cutter ones (the tough learning curve is the overwhelming complaint about Zoot); their payoff is the power to do more of what each user ultimately finds valuable and satisfying. I have mainly been asking how to do, in Tinderbox, something I learned how to do in Zoot -- with all allowances made for differences in the idiom and inspiration of the programs.

I do think of these discussions as being similar to comparisons of how certain ideas are expressed in varying languages. Native speakers of any language can always get their idea across, but the means vary -- and are not always apparent to language-learners.
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« Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2012, 5:48pm by J Fallows »  
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Mark Anderson
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #18 - Jan 23rd, 2012, 6:27pm
 
I think two things are getting conflated here.  Feature requests and questions on how to do tasks. I think further discussion of new TB views, ergo feature requests, ought to start a new thread in the 'off the wall section. Anyone interest in that discussion, please start that new thread.

How to do stuff:

(1) Like in Zoot. Er, you can't. As Mark B explained TB can't currently (v5.10.0) do that sort of display or auto-generate notes/agent so using the Zoot display as the primary reference model doesn't help. You need to restate your desired task in terms of things that are possible. What are the most important bits of info you want TB to show to you? I'm not being deliberately unhelpful in asking to take a different tack, I'm just being honest that there are some things we users can't make TB do just now.

(2) Like in Ecco. This one's sort of doable but I'll need an hour or so to figure it and don't have time just now). I'll try and find time later in the week but there's a fair amount of mis-en-place and testing to do.
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« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2012, 5:28am by Mark Anderson »  

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Mark Anderson
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #19 - Jan 24th, 2012, 9:48am
 
OK, the Ecco stuff is pushed to a new thread here. I've added a quick demo in TB that shows how TB approximates - or doesn't to Ecco's UI. Hopefully that will help Ecco users get a fix on Tinderbox. So, let's take feature discussion of Ecco to the new thread. 'How to' questions related to Ecco should start a new thread in this forum - this thread getting overloaded with different sub-topics.

Having look further at the Zoot UI examples, I've drawn a blank on the Zoot stuff as I can't approximate the UI beyond the details already given up-thread. FWIW, I think the feature discussed is neat - analytically - but I think one needs to take a different approach in TB.
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« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2012, 9:51am by Mark Anderson »  

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Henry Stein
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Re: Can Agent Find All Items Within an Attribute?
Reply #20 - Jan 24th, 2012, 8:30pm
 
Quote:
Different perspectives here could also well reflect different degrees of familiarity and dexterity with different programs. I know Zoot so much better than I know Tinderbox, by virtue of having used it for more than 15 years vs. one year, that to me nothing about it seems confining or artificially formalized in the least. I know what it can do, and what it cannot, so that tuning it exactly to my tastes is second nature.


J.Fallows mirrored my situation with several PC programs.  I've used Ecco Pro daily for 19 years, organizing all of my writing, teaching, and case consulting information.  Seeking other useful tools to help organize, analyze, synthesize, and display complex case material, I explored Zoot, Personal Brain, and Edge Diagrammer for many years as well.  Each of these programs has much to offer, so I still use all of them.  Two months ago, I  discovered Tinderbox and have been fascinated by the prospect of having a single program that might manage all of the text and diagrams, and facilitate my thinking process.  The attribute/value display has been an important factor in the way I identify patterns in case material.  Ecco has provided one path; if I can find a better way, I will use it.  I deeply appreciate all of the help offered by forum members and will continue to explore Tinderbox's capabilities.  My next step will be to study Mark Anderson's examples on the new thread.
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